Curse

Captain Robo · Oct 19, 2007, 04:58 PM // 16:58

One of the best things about Guildwars has always been the interconnected relationship between PVE and PVP. Up until GWEN, both realms of play have shared a skill pool, though the styles of play relative to each are vastly different.

However, with the advent of GWEN, and many of the skills that came with it; there is now far more customization within PVE than PVP in terms of useable skill pools. Of course, I refer to PVE skills, which you can grind a title track to earn.

The majority of skills in Guildwars, while flavorful, fill a variety of niche roles that very rarely occur in game; therefore, many skills in this game will never see the light of day because there are always better options that accomplish the same goals. While PVE skills are not all spectacular, there are few which make the game much easier.

But something still rubs me the wrong way about the whole concept of PVE skills:

Why the hell would you give the unchanging, rinse-and-repeat portion of the game more tools to play with, and neglect the aspect of Guild Wars which needs the most work? Forget being fair, this reasoning doesn't even seem rational! You can take a specific build into PVE and win 100% of the time against unchanging foes, but (at least in a fair and balanced gvg match... again, gvg needs work) GvG largely comes down to player skill over quality of build.

The sheer volume of useless skills in the Guildwars library is immense, and it would have been absolutely great to introduce some new mechanics into PVP; If there are PVE skills, there should also be PVP skills.

I say that the idea of PVE skills goes against the principles that Guildwars has held since the beginning. Either keep PVP and PVE unified, or separate the two aspects of the game entirely.

Quite frankly, separating them (and the skill changes that would entail) would probably be better for PVP overall.

yum · Oct 19, 2007, 05:46 PM // 17:46

Edit: I didnt read the post carefully. -__-
Want more pvp only skills? Bleh. I thought you want different versions of skills corresponding to PvP and PvE enviroment.

No thx

martialis · Oct 19, 2007, 06:42 PM // 18:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Robo

The majority of skills in Guildwars, while flavorful, fill a variety of niche roles that very rarely occur in game; therefore, many skills in this game will never see the light of day because there are always better options that accomplish the same goals. While PVE skills are not all spectacular, there are few which make the game much easier.

But something still rubs me the wrong way about the whole concept of PVE skills:

Why the hell would you give the unchanging, rinse-and-repeat portion of the game more tools to play with, and neglect the aspect of Guild Wars which needs the most work? Forget being fair, this reasoning doesn't even seem rational! You can take a specific build into PVE and win 100% of the time against unchanging foes, but (at least in a fair and balanced gvg match... again, gvg needs work) GvG largely comes down to player skill over quality of build.

The sheer volume of useless skills in the Guildwars library is immense, and it would have been absolutely great to introduce some new mechanics into PVP; If there are PVE skills, there should also be PVP skills.

Because all skills are pvp skills. Because adding this to gvg would be unfun. Also these. Because adding new skills to the game is the only problem with pvp. Because pve is actually fun?

Lord Natural · Oct 19, 2007, 07:05 PM // 19:05

Introducing overpowered skills to GW is what ruined pvp in the first place. You want more of them?

I agree that pvp was completely neglected with gwen, but a lack of new relevant skills isn't the reason.

Captain Robo · Oct 19, 2007, 07:18 PM // 19:18

Perhaps I wasn't being clear:

I would like to see one of two things:

Fun skills that introduce new balanced mechanics to PVP

OR

Rework some of the terrible skills in order to make them actually useful.

This is not Magic: The Gathering, we don't need trash elites. Elite skills should have a reason for being elite ;/

PVE would probably actually be a lot more challenging WITHOUT PVE skills, therefore, I believe they're unnecessary, and the effort that went into making 50 PVE skills would be better suited to fixing the ones currently available.

Riotgear · Oct 19, 2007, 10:01 PM // 22:01

The separation of PvE and PvP components was necessary to keep the effects of one from destroying balance in the other. And it does work both ways, Protective Spirit is disgustingly overpowered in PvE.

People have been asking for this for a while, and I'm glad it was added because it provides more ammunition to use against people who whine about PvP-oriented changes: Not only can PvP changes be counterbalanced in PvE by adjusting the PvE encounters, but now they can also be counterbalanced by simply updating PvE-only skills.

Hyper Cutter · Oct 19, 2007, 10:22 PM // 22:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Robo

which you can grind a title track to earn.

your rank in the title track just functions as the skill's attribute, the PVE skills in GW:EN comes from doing quests...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Robo

Elite skills should have a reason for being elite ;/

A good chunk of them, I think, are elite only to keep them from being used with other elite skills...

Captain Robo · Oct 19, 2007, 10:44 PM // 22:44

Eh, you know what a mean.

Some of them are elite to avoid being used with other elites, but a lot of them just suck copious amounts of ass.

KicknDave · Oct 19, 2007, 11:21 PM // 23:21

I don't see why they can't just make 2 copies of each skill. What I mean is, ALL the current skills, but there are PvE versions and PvP versions. Even a nifty tab for those of us with PvE/PvP characters in the skill menu. With the new PvE only skills introduced recently, why is this so hard to implement? I mean, I know it would take a long a while and that they're working hard on GW2 (supposedly) but, we've seen somethings introduced into GW that no one thought was possible.

Oh and I'm sure this has been said before but ya know...whatever.

yum · Oct 19, 2007, 11:33 PM // 23:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by KicknDave

I don't see why they can't just make 2 copies of each skill. What I mean is, ALL the current skills, but there are PvE versions and PvP versions. Even a nifty tab for those of us with PvE/PvP characters in the skill menu. With the new PvE only skills introduced recently, why is this so hard to implement? I mean, I know it would take a long a while and that they're working hard on GW2 (supposedly) but, we've seen somethings introduced into GW that no one thought was possible.

Oh and I'm sure this has been said before but ya know...whatever.

agree. It's the best solution .
Even better if they can have different versions of skills for each type of pvp too.

That's a dream though

Yichi · Oct 21, 2007, 08:29 AM // 08:29

Because they have already stated that this will never happen for this game due to the creation of the game and the bandwidth that it would take to impliment this change.

So why does every person that has no concept of this keep bringing up this same stupid ass topic?

Bankai · Oct 21, 2007, 09:31 AM // 09:31

Yes, it's a shame that there are a lot of elites that are elites just because they would be pretty good in combination with others. Lacerate, for example, isn't very good at all, but could be pretty strong when used with Oath shot. I also remember that Thousand blades was made elite because ANet thought it would be too strong with IW.

Lafayette · Oct 21, 2007, 09:40 AM // 09:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by KicknDave

I don't see why they can't just make 2 copies of each skill. What I mean is, ALL the current skills, but there are PvE versions and PvP versions. Even a nifty tab for those of us with PvE/PvP characters in the skill menu. With the new PvE only skills introduced recently, why is this so hard to implement? I mean, I know it would take a long a while and that they're working hard on GW2 (supposedly) but, we've seen somethings introduced into GW that no one thought was possible.

I'd prefer if they just balanced according to PvP needs and largely ignored PvE for balance issues - except for skills which are used primarily in PvE such as, say, Shadow Form. The majority of PvE is easy; bad players or bad play result in failure, not skill nerfs.

Two copies of each skill for PvP and PvE makes it unnecessarily complicated, and due to Anet's apparent lack of dedication to GW relative to GW2, dual identities for each skill would seem very impractical. I couldn't think of any skills that deserve to have two versions, either. Balance in PvE is a complete non-issue, given that PvE enemies always have the same skills, usually the same positions/patrols, and group compositions, etc. Every advantage except for usually numbers and character/skill levels are with the human players. Hence, it would seem largely irrelevant if Melandru's makes the user immune to conditions or just removes 1 condition per attack skill. Changes/nerfs to balance PvP don't make it harder to succeed in PvE, they just slow down the rate of loot gathering.

This coming from a primarily PvEer too. Shocking.

Linkie · Oct 21, 2007, 02:52 PM // 14:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bankai

Yes, it's a shame that there are a lot of elites that are elites just because they would be pretty good in combination with others. Lacerate, for example, isn't very good at all, but could be pretty strong when used with Oath shot. I also remember that Thousand blades was made elite because ANet thought it would be too strong with IW.

This was why elites were created in the first place. However, it seems that over time the stance has simply changed to "good skills should be elite", however, that philosophy hasn't transfered over to the core/prophecies skills.

However, there was quite a lot of resistance towards the system with elite skills when they were first introduced, but this died down when it was apparent that Anet had no intentions of changing it. Personally, I hope they decide to use another system to kill skill combos that cause imbalance in GW2. Maybe even something as easy as "you cannot equip this skill with Y, X, and Z skill". That way we might never have seen the wearying/melandrus combo, and other similar combinations with skills that don't seem elite worthy alone.

Riotgear · Oct 21, 2007, 03:11 PM // 15:11

Wearying is already not very good without Melandru. The problem with Melandru is that it shrinks the number of viable counters to a melee frontliner, which makes it easy to cover for the remaining counters that are. Melandru could be described as passive offense that is just as idiotic as passive defense is, for the same reasons.

Quote:

Balance in PvE is a complete non-issue, given that PvE enemies always have the same skills, usually the same positions/patrols, and group compositions, etc.

I see balance in PvE as a non-issue because if enemies become too strong after a skill adjustment, they can be tweaked in other ways like reducing their health, counts, etc. while PvP balance always incurs the same advantages and disadvantages to both sides. The addition of overpowered PvE-only skills made this even more irrelevant.

twicky_kid · Oct 21, 2007, 03:20 PM // 15:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Robo

This is not Magic: The Gathering, we don't need trash elites. Elite skills should have a reason for being elite ;/

MTG has trash rares because each edition has a XX number of cards. Each edition has the same number based on core edition or expansion. Those trash rares are needed to fill up the roster and increase the rarity of other good rares.

The same is true for GW. They need to add XX skills to the game so players would buy it. Adding more than 1-2 good elites per class would have more disastrous than it already has been. Trash elites are for marketing nothing more.

Captain Robo · Oct 21, 2007, 06:20 PM // 18:20

Quote:

MTG has trash rares because each edition has a XX number of cards. Each edition has the same number based on core edition or expansion. Those trash rares are needed to fill up the roster and increase the rarity of other good rares.

The same is true for GW. They need to add XX skills to the game so players would buy it. Adding more than 1-2 good elites per class would have more disastrous than it already has been. Trash elites are for marketing nothing more.

Oh I know, I've read that article.

The problem is that nobody who plays to win is going to use bad cards or bad skills. If you want a build to suit a particular purpose, you use the best skills in that line for that purpose. Trash rares can work in magic because you still have 56 other slots in a deck for other cards; whereas guildwars only allows you 7 additional skill slots, most of which will already be filled due to whatever it is that you're designing the build for. Guildwars has much less room for error in that respect, so in order for a build to work, it needs to be 100% efficient.

At the competitive level of both games, there's no room for jank.

And you can't say its for marketing, because nobody bought this game for the trash skills.

Riotgear · Oct 21, 2007, 06:36 PM // 18:36

Bad elites are not a problem. Izzy could add 1000 utterly terrible skills that nobody would ever use, and it would have exactly zero effect on the game. A bunch of skills are quota-filling failures like Balthazar's Pendulum and Stone Sheath, a bunch are just impossible to make viable without being totally degenerate like Ether Renewal, Discord, and Keystone Signet.

If the game is missing something and an obscure elite being made viable can fix that, then great, buff it. Buffing stuff under the mentality that terrible skills must not be allowed to exist invariably makes the game worse.

Captain Robo · Oct 21, 2007, 07:08 PM // 19:08

Quote:

Bad elites are not a problem. Izzy could add 1000 utterly terrible skills that nobody would ever use, and it would have exactly zero effect on the game. A bunch of skills are quota-filling failures like Balthazar's Pendulum and Stone Sheath, a bunch are just impossible to make viable without being totally degenerate like Ether Renewal, Discord, and Keystone Signet.

That's completely right.

What I was trying to say was that there really is no reason for these skills to exist, provided that they suck this much. If anything, they clutter the skill menu when I change builds.

As you said, there's unredeemable filth like Balthazar's Pendulum, but then there's 'too-powerful-to-be-used' skills like Ether Renewal that got nerfed into oblivion and never looked at again. But outside of that, there are elites that range from build defining "OMGWTFBROKEN", to legitimate "meh" skills.

This could have been avoided if the objective was to make only a few quality skills per campaign, rather than vomit out as many as you can in order to fill a ridiculous quota.

Quote:

If the game is missing something and an obscure elite being made viable can fix that, then great, buff it. Buffing stuff under the mentality that terrible skills must not be allowed to exist invariably makes the game worse.

Maybe I'm just under the knee jerk assumption that after the hundreds of nerfs to various skills over the past two years, maybe the game has changed enough to warrant giving some of these obsoleted skills a second look.

I mean, why put them in the game if nobody is going to use them. Seems like a waste of effort.

Riotgear · Oct 21, 2007, 07:10 PM // 19:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Robo

This could have been avoided if the objective was to make only a few quality skills per campaign, rather than vomit out as many as you can in order to fill a ridiculous quota.

It's actually better to keep throwing shit at the wall and finding what sticks, because it means more good ideas become available, and the bad ideas can be buried. The problem is when they don't get buried, or when they start buried and get dug up.